But what if the situation was revers? What if atheists set up booths and asked religious people that they saw passing "Excuse me sir. Do you realize the world was not created by God?" Or "Have you read any books by Christopher Hitches? His books are really inspiring and could help you leave religion." These atheists would be told that they are being offensive and small minded. That they should respect people and their religion. So if atheists must respect religion and the religious, than why are the religious allowed to disrespect the secularist and his/her world view? What is the reason for this double standard?
One time while visiting NY city with friends we were approached by a Chassidic man who asked us if we were Jewish and married. I wanted to the ignore the man, but my friend answered that we were indeed Jewish and none of us were married. The man handed us pamphlets containing some prayer and told us if we read this special prayer everyday for 40 days we would each magically meat meet the woman of our dreams. I tried to walk away from this nut case but my friend continued talking to him. He asked him, "what about my friend here" and pointed to me, "do you want him to get married and find the person of his dreams." The Chassid said "of course I do. God wants everyone to find their match and to be happy." My friend answered, "but my friend, he is gay. Do you still want him to find the person of his dreams?" I cannot describe the look this Chassidic man gave me. But with scorn in his eyes he said to me "sometimes people fall in life and they just can't get up." With that I threw his pamphlet on the ground and me and my friends walked away.
Not to sound like a hippy, but everyone is different and everyone has their own world view. Everyone should do what makes them happy as long as they do not hurt anyone else. If don't want to society to split than we can't view those that are different from us as people that must be changed or fixed. Just like I would be expected to not try and turn religious people secular, religious people should be expected to not try and turn secular people religious. It is offensive and only continues to fuel the fire of distrust between the two groups.
I can understand the Tfillin issue being annoying, but offensive???? I think you need to get some thicker skin.
ReplyDeleteNow, had they been shouting out in public that all atheists are morons and are going to hell, than you, I can see the offense
Its not what they are saying that is offensive. I realize now I wasn't as clear as I thought I was when writing this. It is the double standard that is offensive. 98% of the time I just walk past and don't even look at them. But why overall question is, why does our "democratic" and "tolerant" society condone religious proselytizing, while condemning secular proselytizing. I am not saying I want to "convert" religious people, I am just asking why the double standard?
DeleteBecause this is in general a religious nation. It's probably as plane as that.
ReplyDeleteI am sure that is the reason. I just hope society can move past this.
DeleteI also want to say thank you for reading and commenting. I really appreciate each and everyone one of my readers. Thank you
Well, it's an interesting blog, even though I disagree with you that society should change ;-)
ReplyDeleteI imagine you would after reading the blogs you follow. But that is the beauty in the conversation. Who wants to only talk to people that they agree with? What is the fun in that?
DeleteI do have my problems with religion. In fact, if I am going to be honest and blunt, I hate religion. But I do not hate the religious person if he does not hate or try to hurt me. We just do not agree. Simple as that.
bu secularists preach all the time. I remember walking out of Penn Station in New York and having some leftist "missionary" brazenly walk over to me and ask: "Would you like to support John Kerry and his campaign?"
ReplyDeleteanother time I was "assaulted" by a secular "missionary" asking me: "Can you sign this petition against the war in Iraq?". and of course, on the colleges I visited there were all sorts of secular missionaries who set up booths against the evil state of Israel.
And let's not forget the atheists who proudly don the t- shirt of the secular mass murderer Che Guevara. They certainly aren't sensitive to how they're affecting me. Let's also not forget that recently atheists had a campaign where they put slogans on buses stating: "There's probably no God": http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7681914.stm
Isn't that a little preachy as well?
i may find all these secular missionaries chasing after me annoying, and supporting evil, sickening causes, but what can you do? If we're going to live with each other, we have to tolerate each other.
If a bunch of Jews want to ask people to put on tefilin, as long as they are not forcing anyone, then that's just free speech. (And judging by the many people who go to these stands and don the tefilin, there is obviously a demand for such things)
Josh, only one of those examples is relevant and it actually makes my point.
DeleteFirst why the others arent relevant. People asking you to vote for John Kerry are not pushing secularism, just their candidate for President. Just because you don't agree with him, does't make him a secularist. In fact, I am sure Kerry is a religious Christian.
Anti war people come from all walks of life and again were not asking you to change your life style and religious beliefs. They just asked you not to support a certain war.
99.9% of people who wear Che Guevara T-shirts have no idea who he was. The few that do, wear it because they find him to be a romantic revolutionary, not because they want you to change your religion.
The atheist billboard campaign is exactly what I WAS talking about. These are people preaching for the religious to leave religion and become atheist. It was covered in the news like the world was going to blow up! As if it was the worse thing to ever happen. But there are religious billboards all over and that is considered normal. So why the double standard Josh?
I didn't bring up the Iraq war protesters or the pro- Kerry "missionaries" because I was saying they were atheists, I brought them up because they are examples of causes that have nothing to do with religion. And yet, there are many who go out onto the streets to become "missionaries" for these secular causes. This shows that it is not only religious people who try to convert people to their cause, but secular people as well.
ReplyDeleteIt's true that most people don't know who Che Guevara is, but I have met some people who wore it with pride because they believed in his cause and they wanted to share it with others. They might not have been trying to change any one's religion, but my point is that here we have secular people "missionizing" for a cause that has nothing to do with religion. It doesn't take religion to set up a booth, it just takes a strongly-held opinion.
I think that the atheist billboard campaign made the news because it was connected to best selling author and scientist richard dawkins, and because it challenged the status quo. Just as secular Turkey is becoming more religious and this makes the news, so too the religious west is moving in the opposite direction and becoming more secular, so this makes the news.
Again, I didn't say that religious groups are the only one that tries to get people to change their mind. Of course political groups do the same. I did say that when it comes to religious views, society allows you push any one that you want, except for the one that says there is no religion.
DeleteAnd I very much disagree with your assessment of why the atheist billboard campaign made news. Firstly, it had little to nothing to do with Dawkins. It was done by a group called American Atheist, which has its own long history and is run by a man by the name of David Silverman. Dawkins is one of the major atheist writers today, but people seem to think he is behind every atheist group on the planet. He is not.
The campaign made the news because conservative America hates/distrusts atheist. Polling shows that Americas would sooner elect a Buddhist, lesbian before electing an atheist. This is the same country that would now allow that same candidate to get married in most states. Americans do not understand atheists or atheism. They believe it is impossible to be moral and atheist at the same time. They are scared of atheists and that is why that campaign made the news. And that is the same reason all religions can go and spread their message without making the news but atheists cannot.
but dawkins is the spiritual head of the movement, so to speak: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/3229106/Prof-Richard-Dawkins-drives-support-for-Londons-first-atheist-bus-advert.html
ReplyDeleteThat is utter bull. Dawkins is simply a popular atheist author. There is no spiritual head and there is no movement. Atheist only agree on 2 things. First that we see no reason to believe in god or anything supernatural since there is no proof. Second, we want separation of government and religion. Everything else is up for grabs. So how can there be an atheist movement and how can there be a spiritual leader of such a group. I know plenty of atheist groups that I would never associate with and I know there are plenty of atheists that would never want to associate with me.
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